My group is about half way through this adventure now. A few comments/suggestions based on how the adventure and campaign have played out so far:

By now, 2 1/2 modules in, the players have come up with a lot of questions. I've used Leena to answer a lot of questions, having her better explain the relationship between Modra, Sarshan, Myrissa, Tusk, and Iranda. Essentially, she's not really providing much new information, just clarifying/confirming what they already knew. For instance, by letting them realize that nameless Dark Creeper in The Vents with the key was "Iranda", and that was Modra's partner in crime. I've also had her foreshadow Thannu, and speak of Sarshan's 'tremendous power', so that Thannu seems more like a legitimate "end boss" in the tower, and less of a bait-n-switch consolation prize. My hope is that they'll actually work toward killing Thannu while avoiding Sarshan, figuring they'll have to content themselves with disrupting his operations for now, so that his escape is more their choice than a ride down the railroad.

Did anyone else find it weird in the Dark Foundry encounter that you had a 3x3 creature in a room with several 1 square wide bridges? How did you handle it? I just let it cross, though I did make Acrobatics checks every time (it made them every time). If I were to run this again and not use printed maps (which otherwise are really, really nice to have), I'd probably make the center bridge wider and reduce the Acrobatics check on that one. That way, there is a more plausible way for the boar to cross as well as a less treacherous pass for the workers. Leave the other more dangerous bridges to provide a risk for trying to get flanking, etc.

In the Training Grounds encounter, I recommend encircling the battle area with goblin, orc, orge, troll, and other monstrous minis to give it a backyard arena feel. I described various factions cheering for different teams, dark creepers running around taking bets (a good way to provide a monetary treasure parcel, the bookie gives them their cut). I even had two audience members get into it and start fighting (each other).

The complexity 4 skill challenge in Umbraforge got tedious by the end. I would either drop the number of successes or break it into a series of complexity 1 skill challenges in the various parts of the city: training grounds, mercenary camps, slave bazaar, market, etc.

Good catch. Throughout the adventure path, there are often little inconsistencies or problems like that which went unnoticed before publishing. I hadn't picked up on that, and I was about to run the encounter tonight. I plan to use a 2x2 mini for the boar though, so it won't be an issue for me. (I'm playing with only 4 players instead of 5, so I have to 'downgrade' encounters slightly anyway.)

Regarding a 3x3 creature and 2x2 spaces though, there are rules in the PHB for "squeezing", pg 292. The boar moving across the bridge would incur penalties, but be very doable, and using the bridges to slow the creature could very much become a part of the party strategy.

Regarding the skill challenge: this is my/my group's first campaign in 4th edition, and this module was the first exposure to complicated skill challenges. The players I have are keen on roleplaying, but still found these challenges difficult at times. I find I have to be very flexible, as a lot of their solutions are 'outside the box', and then simply find ways to fit them in, figuring out which skill is most appropriate and asking for a roll. Even then, I cut the Umbraforge on short - as you said, it was tedious by the end. Fortunately, ours played out that the training ground was the last place they visited, so I played the crowd and combat, and had Leena stay behind after they bested the ogres.

I ended up downplaying Leena and even Reniss, to a point. As written, they feel too deus ex machina for me. I actually introduced Reniss partway through that skill challenge, let my players choose her as an ally, then split up and go find out more info. Especially for the Umbraforge encounter, if you break it up into sections, I would end each section by giving the PCs instructions to talk to someone in another area of town, ultimately leading to a meeting with Leena. With two combat encounters in the mix, I don't think it would feel too messenger-boy-ish.

I ended up having to modify the end of this adventure. Why? My players decided that, while Sarshan is clearly dangerous, they don't just go around randomly killing businessmen, even morally questionable businessmen. So they killed Modra, who had tried to kill them and thus they had motivation to go after, and when they met immediate resistance upon entering the tower, they just turned around and left. They were hoping to present Modra's body and get a reward.

So, as they had killed some of the guards in the library, they ended up doing a skill challenge to escape the camps, broken up by the various encounter that I shifted from the tower to areas throughout the camp. Since the penalty for failing the skill challenge was being caught and killed, I felt it added some nice tension.

I just ran into a problem with the group I'm runniing through this. They also have a problem with motivation for going into the tower, but the real problem is one of them died during the fight with Modra. So now they're not really 100% motivated to go into the tower (though they are starting to get the "This is bigger and more of a threat to our homelands that we thought) but now have a dead comrade to deal with. So they're going to leave and try and get him brought back (or at the very least to regroup).

I would imagine that if they did this then the foundry is going to find itself heavily fortified (as they just lost all their guards and someone clearly "got away" as everyone is dead). So does anyone have a suggestion on how I can allow them to leave, take care of business for a day or so, and still reasonably get them back into the tower?

It depends a little on what you consider "critical" the module. To my thinking, there are two plot elements that are crucial: 1. They meet Sarshan, or at least learn who he is, and come to recognize the threat he represents, and 2. The tower (by Modra's hand, by the party's hand, or by someone else's hand) must come down (to justify his relocation and their inability to find him later.

If you're keen on forcing them into the tower but need to provide them with an extended rest, in the case of my group, while they battled Modra, the foundry was surrounded, and they realized this. Finding the secret door as the battle concluded (but before the forces outside stormed in), they retreated (they were forced to by circumstance) into the secret passage. I had the forces storm in and be unable to find them, and they took their extended rest in the secret room off the secret passage. (In my campaign, only Modra knew of the passage.)

Another option could be to have them captured, after which they should naturally be brought to Sarshan, so the meeting still happens. In this case, they'll miss out on some encounters in the tower, but those are mostly filler and you could make up the XPs elsewhere.

OK guys big post so hold on. I'm really struggling to understand the plot between Sharshan and Modra, basically as you read back from Shadow forge the prior motivations and adventures don't make so much sense.

Sharshan has this secret empire, that is nonetheless preparing for all out war. Why wouldn't he arm Tusk - when he clearly is happy to arm the Gnolls from DOTD! Why wouldn't he behind the disruption Tusk causes and Sinruth's attacks as well - gorilla warfare whilst providing a massive distraction elsewhere. (Not sure how this fits with the rest of the AP, so those who know more it would be great if this maps out according to what comes down later).

If Modra has let Sharshan down by going behind his back - why would he go back to his stronghold? The plan appears to be that he wants to disrupt the foundry, but this seems crazy as he is all alone, without help and then what does he do afterwards save make himself a bigger target for Sharshan?

Part 2 below

Ab

Part 2

The story thus far has more holes in it than Swiss cheese, so lets try and sort it out so we can get the characters properly motivated to better fit later continuity?

If think Sharshan should take on all the contracts but is busy preping for some other wars (does the AP ever reveal what the armies he is marshalling in the Shadowfell are going?) he is behind the Sinruth's gorilla attacks, as with the gnolls using the cover of Tusks army as a huge distraction to draw forces away from the main towns in the vale.

Modra takes his eye off the ball, his close associate/wife/brother/sister is with Tusk but gets killed and the party stop Tusk's attack before it can begin. Modra falls out of favour with Sharshan and therefore is a wanted creature.

But here is where I get stuck, why does Modra travel back to Sharshan's camp? What is the game he is trying to play - even if his being involved is to lead the party to Sharshan? This is where I'm currently struggling to come up with a plausable reason, that doesn't just sound like Deux ex Machina.


Thanks

Ab

You guys might be forgetting that Umbraforge has a slave bazaar in it and the foundry is where Sarshan experiments on these slaves to genetically alter them into new soldier races. He's a slaver and experiments on humanoid specimens? If your parties aren't motivated enough to stop that, your pc's are indeed morally questionable. If that's the kind of game your running though, good luck getting through the rest of the campaign!

Seriously though, Sarshan is not a nice guy. You can basically equate him with any smooth-talking badguy villain. He sells mercs/weapons/slaves to the highest bidder, and the slaves he doesn't sell he experiments on to make new soldier-races? Come on, good-aligned characters should have no problem wanting to put this guy to the sword.

My players ended up Capturing Modra(Unconscious) and turning him over to officials in Overlook. They really did not see a big need to travel to the shadowfell, but decided to check things out. When they came out of the cave complex, they almost decided to go back through the portal and destroy it from the other side. With a touch of DM railroading they at least went down to the camps and did the skill challage. This lead them to decide not to go to the foundry, ("who cares if they (Modra's accomplises) are going to blow this place up"?) )"Thats a good thing") With Modra in jail in Overlook they thought they had most of there awnsers waiting. (Sharsan who is in Overlook, got word that Modra was captured, and arranged for hiim to be killed through his contacts with the Lost Ones) Sharshan also could not come back through the portal, because the PC alerted the guards and council of what is going on under the Happy Begger and now it is under lock and key. The PC's decided to return to OVerlook, and get more awnsers from Modra. When they return to the Happy Begger, they discover that there is a large inestigation going on (A couple council members are about asking question and etc). The PC's learn that Modra is dead, the lost ones had something to do with it. The PC's had a source from the Lost Ones, that let them know the Sharshan is the one who arranged for Modra's death, and that he was in Overlook. The PC then decided that Sharshan would try to go back through the portal, so they camped out in front of it. They convinced the council to leave extra guards in and around the Happy Begger. (Late that night the Happy Begger was attacked by some dark creepers and a mysterious necromancer who summoned some wraiths. These wraiths made short order of some of the lower level guards, and soon became more wraiths) Some of them phased through the floor of the Happy Begger an enganged the PC) Eventually higher ranking guards and officials came and destroyed the wraiths. Cont.

The PC decided to tear down the portal and destroy all possible routes from Overlook to the Happy Begger and vice versa. They are convinced that there could be other portals from the Shadowfell into Overlook. They are also pretty upset with the lost ones. (I get the feeling they are going to try and locate the Lost Ones) {This does not seem to have effected the outcome of the future modules} Sharshan is still alive, currently in Overlook, the foundry is destroyed as well as Sharshans Tower. Sharshan is going to believe the PC's had a role in the destruction of his operation at Umberforge.} (I am going to run some encounters with the PC's in Overlook with the Lost Ones, and eventually they will find out they have a bounty on there heads, and I will possibly kidnap one of them or someone close and continue on with the modules)

Do you guys forsee anything I might be overlooking?

[quote]
Be careful to make sure your PCs don't just decide to let Sarshan handle Modra, [b]and be careful to provide your party motivations for exploring Sarshan's tower.[/b]
[/quote]

Okay, on this one I have a comment from one of my players after defeating Modra:
"Okay, let's cut his head off and get it to Sarshan to collect the bounty"
All of them (even the lawful good Deva cleric) agreed
WTF? :D
Didn't need to provide motivation to explore the tower..

I've hit a massive roadblock and was hoping someone could help. Basically, the group faced down Modra, who escaped through the portal, but now they don't have any motivation to go after him as I've foreshadowed a potentially large threat on the other side. They're also confused as to the part with the key (i.e. we capture the key, they steal the key back, now we've got to go chase the key again? wtf?). Now they're considering marshaling the forces of Overlook to send an army through as backup. Ideas?

I really appreciate the work that went into making the printable maps!!! Well done and THANK YOU! I use them often when I run, and they add a real polish to the game board as opposed to my own marker-scratches on a megamat! :)

Map 4C and 4D are not accessible, however, even when I am logged into ENWORLD. Does anyone have either of those maps that they can share with me via dropbox or something? That would be really awesome, if you do! Email me at jimd2<dot>0<at>gmail<dot>com. And that's a ZERO between the <dot> and <at>

Thanks!

You hear a lot of negative talk about this adventure, but with our group it got voted as the best part from Heroic Tier. Of course it didn't all go by the books, not even nearly, but it was fun I have to admit too. They ended up searching out and striking an alliance with Modra to bring down Sharshan's business. (This was hard for Renissa, who had accompanied them earlier, but they promised her to revenge Modra after the big fish is taken care of). What I came up with was that they went on saboteuring the factory with Modra until they got interrupted and Modra's other henchmen died in the following battle at factory. He however knew about the secret entrance and since this was the only way to hit Sharshan (after their saboteuring equipment was ruined and etc..) they could think of, they went on gladly. They did get captured and in a final encounter with Thannu, where they ended up betraying Renissa and steeling the alliance with Modra to get an easier way out (they were actually afraid this was too big for them right now and wanted out of the place).

I just think that hinting towards a deal with Modra might be a good way if you're having those kind of motivator problems, but only if you've hinted out the bigger fish earlier on of course.